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Post by Esperia on May 23, 2019 5:34:43 GMT -4
Sorry for the delay in responding, just woke up but I'm going to try to address as many points as I can here.
To answer your concerns Rosey:
- Regular spars won't have to be supervised, you only need to tell a teacher 'off-screen' and do it in the right areas, but there will still be cameras to ensure everything goes well, and going too far will have consequences. Duels at the other hand require supervision at all time but staff is currently working on finetuning those rules.
- Similar to what is mentioned before, considering this is U.A, if you are doing a thread where it is plausible for rule breaking to be noticed/discovered, the committee should be allowed to step in even if it's a closed topic same way a teacher could.
Example of what can be invaded (after talking with the participants): Students having an unsanctioned fight on campus in a public area that goes out of hand and explosions start flaring left and right (note that you can usually expect npc students to notice you and alert the teachers/committee) Example of what cannot be invaded: Darren drinking booze in his dorm room
Use some logic here, this is supposed to be a prestigious hero academy, and after the last year, you can expect security to be tighter than ever, on top of enforcers patrolling around the campus. Expect actions to have consequences, and right now there have been way too little consequences.
- Committee Size: The size of the committee is open for debate, but your opinion is shared by me and Dessen, personally, we feel the committee should be left small in scale and likely won't have more than 2~4 additional members.
- On terms of class presidents Class presidents were voted based on a popularity contest and have no ties to the committee. While they share the goal of ensuring things run smoothly in their class, they have no power beyond that of a fellow student, committee members at the other hand have the responsibility of ensuring the rules are being followed and that responsibility is accompanied with the power bestowed onto them. Because of those details it is a much more rigorous process to get recruited into the committee than normally.
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Post by Lani Bijan on May 23, 2019 6:53:59 GMT -4
I'm kind of super against my topics being policed by other members. I understand the staff trying to make sure people keep to the rules and the lore. But I don't like the idea that people are going to be watching my topics for everything I do to make sure I keep to the school rules. It's too authoritarian for me. I don't need members doing the staff's jobs. I understand if it's something egregious, but in cases like that, a teacher can already step in and do something about it. Having students and normal members just in and interrupting my topics and my story against my will is a big problem for me and I don't like it at all.
I'm totally fine with the committee as a story tool. Like, if people want to RP being in the committee and want to RP their patrols through the halls and RP a topic of catching someone doing something (with their permission). then I'm 100% for that. Them having the power to just jump in and invade someone else's topic is what I'm 100% against. It is wrong to just take someone's topic and story for their character away from them like that, especially if it's not staff.
Like I said before if it is a particularly bad example, then staff should be the ones stepping in. Keeping to the board's story and lore is important and people that break that should be watched for that. But this as it is described right now is a huge overreach that I am not comfortable with.
As for IC chat on the discord, that thing has been a mess from the start. I don't participate in it. If this idea is coming into existence because of IC chat, I rather that chat be restricted and police than the whole UA forum itself. It feels like everyone is being punished for the actions of a few, which has been done before and was problematic then. Please don't do that. And if class presidents can't control IC chat, why would a non-staff committee be able to do it? They'd have to be backed by staff power, which would get the same result if it was given to the class presidents. So why separate it in the first place?
In the end, I hate the idea of being watched, monitored, and invaded by non-staff. I write my story and they don't have any right to decide what I can and can't do with my character. If they want to do it purely for an RP thing, that's fine. If they just want to make sure people stay to the lore and contact staff if they don't, that's fine. If they want to police IC chat, that's fine. But interrupting my RP is not fine. Only staff should have that power and it should be something staff does with actual authority, the staff controlled teachers.
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Post by Tetsuko Shindou on May 23, 2019 10:02:36 GMT -4
The disciplinary committee isn't just being given freedom to invade and interrupt as they please. Keep in mind this is a staff-managed undertaking, not just giving power to people and telling them to go nuts. Threads will only be entered with the participants' permission to - as has always been the case with school staff invasions as well - except in the case of extreme circumstances, in which the committee will most likely need staff permission nonetheless. The committee will not just jump in and invade threads as they please, the assertion they have that power just isn't true, though it seems to be a misunderstanding. Note Esperia mentioned that participants had to be talked to first.
Again, they're more hall monitors, not the bloody Schutzstaffel. This is an IC group; this is for RP opportunities above all else, not to override other people and interfere. The committee does not have the ability to do that freely, nor could they do it unchecked, given the staff management of the group.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2019 12:13:28 GMT -4
So, the reason I'm against this is I play a bully Hikaru and as it is U.A is already incredibly strict on bullying and the sort especially since U.A chat is considered basically completely canon at the moment. So all this does really is further discourage of playing my own character and developing plots around it when it was already hard enough since I have to deal with teachers and students constantly reporting me, mind you I have fun and such or else I wouldn't play the character but right now this isn't shaping up to be hall monitors since it literally has enforcers.
All this really does is discourage me playing my character, I don't disagree with the concept of a disciplinary committee but the school itself doesn't have many problems with people obeying rules on campus it's more so people acting like vigilantes or just being unheroic. I give this a veto since all it does is kill character concepts for very little gain, again you can't really knock this off as being hall monitors since you have the power to physically enforce the rules which is something that also looks bad for the school to give students the literal right to assault someone. So hard no from me boss, if you edited it and made it sound more like glorified hall monitors I'd be alright. If this was a background flavor thing I'd be alright, but this just hurts character concepts. Remove the peacekeeper and enforcer part and just make them hall monitors who are glorified tattle tails, don't make them armed guards.
Also another thing that people forget is that bullying in Japan is more acceptable and common than in western countries, which while it sounds random is kind of a big deal if you get that little factoid when making this committee, since again, it hurts the high school bully character and specifically my style of play. So Im giving a hard no unless you restructure this to be actual glorified hall monitors.
Because, let me ask, what is gained by having this? The risk of this hurting rp is high but what do we gain for this? Because again it's very high risk because, one of the punishments is suspension which is basically an OOC consequence for IC actions since all it does is stop me from rp. And right now I'm assuming you guys 100 percent make clear with me before you invade my thread, and that I get a say in it. If that ever doesn't happen even once this entire committee is basically not worth the effort.
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Post by Momonji Yamada on May 23, 2019 12:47:44 GMT -4
Every concern I have has already been expressed pretty in depth, so I won't repeat the argued points already addressed. I don't have a lot of faith in the "just trust us, we won't let it get abused" line of defense, but that's just my own opinion. Personally I see this stifling and discouraging rp, more so than creating new RP opportunities. Sorta seems like this is already a 'set in stone' decision so I'm not too sure how much my feedback is going to matter in this case, but I'm not a fan of this.
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Post by Esperia on May 23, 2019 13:20:57 GMT -4
It seems the primary concerns voiced so far are found in two camps:
- I'm worried that this will affect my plots and will make me unable to continue doing the things I'm doing. For the most part this isn't going to be the case. To comment about Hikaru: You have to keep in mind U.A is supposed to be a prestigious school with a reputation to maintain, being there should be considered a privilege so yes, if your bullying goes too far, expect a slap on the wrist.
However, please understand that the intention behind this project is not to ruin people's plots, it's exactly the opposite in the sense that we want to give people more plot opportunities. For example let's take Eli Bantis who wanted to become a delinquent by means of a plot and actually get noticed for it. He took up contact with the committee and we plotted together a story for him to get caught after some cool fights he did leading to a whole new story for him to pursue.
Consider the committee less of a blockade and more like a trampoline to help you do even more stuff, in the sense that you now have an additional avenue to traverse should you wish to do plots which might involve breaking rules or doing illegal stuff. They won't actively be there to block you, but they can be asked to get involved in your stories if you want.
- The other concern is about people their actions having consequences. This is something that unfortunately is a matter every character, no matter their faction has to deal with. If you're a civilian getting involved into a lot of crimes, you can be arrested, if you're a villain attacking U.A or an important governmental building, you can get noticed. It doesn't matter if you do those things in closed or open threads, but staff will always inform you beforehand when you start approaching a point that you will get into troubles icly.
Also keep in mind U.A has a set of defined rules, which even without the committee could be enforced by teachers, which yes also includes regular member teachers.
the main point is that in the end serious punishments will always been overseen by staff, which is why the Spymaster and Shadow are on the top of the committee.
but the short version:
-We are not going to make you stop having your plots or ruin your fun -The committee is a plot initiative for people to make use of to enrich their plots(part of why the amount of members is kept really small) -If at any time you end up in a situation where you would draw the attention from the committee, you will be contacted in DM first, and if you're truly of the opinion 'I don't want to deal with a regular member!' then ask for Shadow or the Spymaster to handle it.
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Post by throwaway19 on May 23, 2019 13:25:12 GMT -4
Yeah I agree with the people who are doubting this idea. IC-ly it makes sense why the school wants to crack down on rule breakers, but OOC-ly it really stifles character development and plots.
I’m a huge fan of Puglord’s character, Hikaru, because he’s a bully and bullies are hard to play. I wanna see him be a little shit, and a disciplinary committee directly impedes that.
I also don’t like the whole “just trust us, we won’t abuse the system” thing. I’d be more accepting of this committee if there were more checks and balances. You say committee members won’t be allowed to jump into threads whenever they want and that they’ll only jump in if players give them permission. What if players DON’T give permission, but committee players think they 100% should put a stop to the shenanigans? Can the committee member override the players’ veto?
I don’t see how this committee enhances plots for anyone outside the committee.
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Post by DrTentacles on May 23, 2019 13:35:53 GMT -4
As a voice of staff--I just want to clarify a few things.
First, this isn't a whole-staff project, though it went through all of us for approval, and we decided that it was complete enough to go up for member feedback. Esperia (and a few others) are defending it as creators who put a lot of effort into the idea, not just as staff--but, ultimately, we're all paying attention to feedback.
However, one of the checks the staff are putting on this is that actions from the committee need to logged in a thread, so staff that don't have as much of a hand in the committee can review them at any point. In addition, major actions (like expulation/suspension) should come up for staff discussion, as we essentially review that sort of stuff from the view of UA administrators and the Japanese hero program. (And as people who want to make sure OOC rules are followed.)
Ideally, this should serve as a way to give more plots to rule-following students and rule-breakers alike. The more specific complaints get, especially in regard to "no, this could be changed," the more helpful they are.
However, "this isn't going to work, it needs a complete rework" is feedback too, and it'll be taken into account as well.
So basically:
All staff, even those not involved in the committee will be able to review committee actions.
Specific changes are always the most helpful thing.
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Post by throwaway19 on May 23, 2019 13:48:14 GMT -4
Lol sorry I wrote my last post before seeing Esperia’s post.
After reading Esperia and DrTentacles’ replies, I’m starting to come around to the idea of a disciplinary committee.
People already have plot ideas related to the committee, so I can see how this idea can be a benefit for everyone.
I’m not opposed to the committee anymore, but my number one concern is conflict of interest. It’d be better if members of the committee were played by people who aren’t staff. For one, I want other roleplayers to have a chance for their characters to step up and play important roles.
More importantly, staff already play a big hand in how IC consequences get dealt out, and having both IC and OOC power doesn’t sit right with me. It’s not hard for me to imagine a scenario where IC and OOC opinions start to blur if a staff member has to deal with rule breakers.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2019 14:47:06 GMT -4
Besides the fact that bullying is still common even in prestigious schools, what constitutes as a slap on the wrist in this case? And are we doing this from the context of realism or anime discipline committee? Also its not that people are necessarily mad about characters having consequences, I just think we already do have consequences and its just annoying to have more piled on. But I'm going to reiterate, what is the positive in this.
I'm not trying to convey this as an attack by the way, I'm okay with the idea of a discipline committee but right now how they're structured really does look like its going to be more of obstacle rather than something that enriches rp since what it gives it also takes away to some degree. I feel like my concerns are valid and I don't really see what is there to gain by this committee, it sounds like its fun for the people in it and not really for the people who aren't.
Also a small thing is, what happens if someone doesn't invade your thread but says they spied on you via cameras at U.A and have told you and now you have to deal with the consequences even if they weren't there for your thread.
As long as you guys do this as a sort of deal where its mean't solely for plotting and you don't actively pursue invading threads I'm alright, the problem is you worded it from the start that you'd actively pursue justice rather than having it be plotted out and than stated that it'd be plotted out. That's what makes me scared. I might not have worded this the best but I hope you get the gist
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2019 19:51:37 GMT -4
I mean I don't really think its fair for Throwaways bit about staff not being able to be apart of the committee. Given staff work hard too and Have chars they want to play as well xD And the idea of having a good few in the commitee wouldn't mean someone has whole power anyway. So that seems pointless to possibly deny a ic char that would make since cause a staff plays said char. Cause that sorta crosses the ooc effecing ic. Which in my mind all of this is a pure ic thing. IC consequences is to be expected and is just part of the story. The school is more then just a prestigious school. It's like THE SCHOOL at the moment. Given not only how allot of quirkless view quirkers but being the very first attempt at a hero school in this country. If people go to crazy and break rules nad make it look not so good. Then it would make sense people would question if the school should even continue icly in a public opinion.
I feel part of the thing with playing a trouble maker is like when playing a villain. You should expect its possible to receive a slap on the wrist at times if what you do is gonna catch attention. If allot of people see what you did or you do it in a way where it'll get reported then it makes sense something might come your way from it. Given this somewhat seems like a easily believable idea for students.
I also think its a good idea given even stating the rules and past action it doesn't really seem to have made much of a impact on certain types of rule breaking or things students do that isn't really all that student like for what the school is in its infancy as well. As well as if a char does go to far and receives certain consequences its all IC. That's part of development and growth. Actions and consequences building up into new plots and stories.
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Post by Cian Glave on May 23, 2019 21:21:16 GMT -4
I'm most uncomfortable with OoC power being granted by it. As long as that's inline or not exist, then I don't see a problem. A purely IC group with IC effects for RP is fine. If it's solely plotting it is fine. Going beyond that is where the problem is. Part of RPing well is having believable reactions and consequences. Many people do that just fine and the few that don't are caught by staff. An RP group with any kind of OoC power aren't really needed for that. Basically, if it's purely for plots and IC stuff, that's cool. Anything beyond is a no for me.
(Was too lazy to change accounts)
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2019 21:29:12 GMT -4
What Ooc Power though? I'm a little confused, Given if students break rules and do things that go against the schools mindset and if its known about ic in one means or another them then getting summoned to one of the students and or teachers or others that would punish them sounds like pure ic to me. It even sounds like after the fact of the problem it'd be talked about how it would be rp'd out. I'm confused about the ooc power? I suppose worst case scenario would be form ic a student gets punished and has to learn from it. Or learns to be more sneak so they don't get caught >3>
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