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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 15:40:17 GMT -4
Hey guys. Stuff has been wild the past few days, hasn't it? Well I have always been fond of the idea of getting member inout on issue with the site, so it looks like I finally get that! Feel free to post your suggestions below.
THough I would like to say that I would like for you not to point fingers, or argue. THis is input time, not shit slinging time (we've had enough of that lately.) So feel free to comment and bring up any suggestions you would like. Though I can confirm ahead of time we will most likely not be implementing a hard stat system, if that is going to be your suggestion.
On top of this I will be in the VC Staff Q&A aswell. Anything that gets brough up there will be posted here as minutes.
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Post by Ryuusei Igarashi on May 18, 2019 16:24:18 GMT -4
I'll abstain from mentioning (or going deep into) anything related to the past few days because, firstly, many of what I wanted to expres has already been expressed by other memebers and, secondly, this all has just been too tiring for me and I don't want to be more involved than what I should because... well, because that would just hurt and I'm not here for that.
As for Input:
1- I suggest looking at the thread Chary (along with Kyou) posted some time ago. They had some good input there and I also posted a far too long of a reply there with what I thought! I think that, regarding to questions related to in-rp, there's not really much more that I want to say.
2- Be more open when it comes to having members (Admins, Mods & Staff) kicked/voted out and present the reasons for it straight away to avoid needless drama. Arkwright got kicked from Administrator and there never was an explanation as to why; Fluffy got kicked and you all saw how that turned out. I think that if you take such measures you have to be ready to own up to them - if they were decisions made with confidence, there's no need to never give members a reason or wait x months to do so. It's also a good way to think if you guys are making the right decision or not: if you are not confortable with sharing the reasons that led to the decision, perhaps there's a need to rethink the action.
3- Don't let an environment be created where a divide between members who supported side x and the ones who supported side y becomes palpable. Unfortunately I can already see this beginning to happen and forcing people to take a step back from the site, which it makes me super sad. We're all human and we should all be able to have respectable conversations while understanding the others' point of view, no matter the friends that they have in common or not. So yeah, basically I'm just trying to say for you huys to be careful about (unintentionally or not) allowing some members to be cast aside due to their stances in the past few days.
4- 100 Free EXP for everyone due to PTSD.
Seriously though, I think that the main thing I really want to say that: be good to each other (this goes for Staff and everyone else). Personally, I'm a bit naive but I really believe this is possible. This is just the internet and we're all here to forget irl worries and have some fun, so let's try to not make the same social structures and systems that kick us down outside of TP and Discord be reflected in here too. Not saying for everyone to be friends, but, y'know: treat other like you want to be treated and all that jazz.
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Post by Doc's Guest Account on May 18, 2019 17:12:29 GMT -4
Please note it is possible to post in this thread anonymously by swapping your account to a guest.
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Post by DrTentacles on May 18, 2019 17:16:42 GMT -4
As a note from the real me--Arkwrite's departure was conducted internally among admins, and I agree could have been communicated better. I can't comment further as I'm unaware of the specifics. Fluffy, however, stepped down after private feedback to work on personal issue for a month, with the expectation of her return. She was not removed from staff until the announcement came out.
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Post by Ryuusei Igarashi on May 18, 2019 18:19:31 GMT -4
Sorry, but there was no Announcement - in fact, the only "Announcement" made was Fluffy herself writing on #annoucements: "Fluffy - Risaka's Famine05/02/2019 - Minor update from me as well. Due to severe stress and issues, I'll be taking a breather from the position of admin to have some peace of mind. If any of you need any help, I'm always here to assist you as always. Much love!" And a short reply made by Crimson on #ask_chat when one member asked what the announcement was about: "Crimson | Haruuhi, Thunder, Yuri05/02/2019 fluffy stepping down as admin and taking a break" After that little reply, Fluffy added this herself: "Fluffy - Risaka's Famine05/02/2019 In essence, it's been a rough time for me. My father comitted suicide this winter. My exams has been a mess, as has my personal life. I'll be returning in the future, but the added pressure of site stuff isn't helping. I'll be back with a vengeance in the future, fear not. For now, I'll rest up a bit and recover some sanity." This were the only things that were told publicly to members about this matter before the drama of these previous days. Not only that, but saying that "she was not removed from staff until the announcement came out" is also wrong, since Fluffy's message on #annoucements was made when she already was a member - so, after she stepped down (or forced to stepped down, that's not up to me to judge/decide). Not only that, but, according to the "Removal of an Admin" post signed by Staff (with the exception of Kelo - one of the Admins -, Dessen and Esperia), there is no point in which it's stated that Fluffy "stepped down after private feedback to work on personal issue for a month". What is said explicitly is that Fluffy was asked to step down because, according to the majority of Staff, she 1) "she acted as final say on any issue of discussion", her 2) "conduct toward members could also be abrasive and uncomfortable" and that she 3) "was unable to separate herself from her characters".
It's after those points that it's written that (quoting directly again):
"Due to this, Fluffy was asked in a private conversation by the majority of the moderator team to step down from her role as an Admin, but remain on the staff as a moderator for a month. During this month, we intended to re-evaluate the general leadership structure of the staff team to ensure a more equal say for all members of staff. Instead, she chose to remove herself from staff entirely. However, the option of her rejoining was still on the table."
So saying that "private feedback" was made with the intention of her being able to "work on personal issues" is totally wrong - it wasn't and saying that it was goes against the exact document that the majority of Staff wrote and signed to explain the situation. What most likely happened was that Fluffy used that as an excuse to cover the Staff's back and not tell everyone exactly what happened from her point of view.
Now, again, all this could've been avoided if everyone took the right and human approach. If the intent really was re-evaluating "the general leadership structure of the staff team to ensure a more equal say for all members of staff" and, even with Fluffy choosing herself to become a member, "the option of her rejoining was still on the table", it was as simple as writing exactly that on #announcements when the decision was made. Like I said before: if you take such measures you have to be ready to own up to them and if they were decisions made with confidence, there's no explanation for you guys to not announce them confortably.
It would just need to be something like: "Staff talked and, due to x, y, z, we decided to remove Fluffy from Staff. We'll be re-organizing our system in the next month and, if all goes well, she'll be welcomed back". Easy, right? I think that what rubbed most people off is why this wasn't done, which obviously raised the question of how honest everyone involved in this drama was really being.
That's why I wrote earlier that Staff really needs to be more open when it comes to subjects like this. Because if a proper annoucement is made and you guys made the right choice: amazing, everyone's happy; if a proper announcement is made and you guys made the wrong choice: not great, but at least you were fully transparent and backed your own decision, members can now talk to you about their concerns and everyone can learn and grow from it.
EDIT: The 100 free EXP was a serious point too!!!!!!!!!!! :<
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Post by DrTentacles on May 18, 2019 18:30:35 GMT -4
Once again, let me try to explain this.
First: Fluffy was spoken to by a small section of staff I was not part of, in an attempt to solve this issue in-house, without any embarrassment, regarding issues agreed upon by the majority of staff. She chose to step down, to focus on personal issues, and during this time, the staff would discuss structure changes to address those issues as well. There was no point during this period at which rejoining was off the table, brought up, or refused. Both Fluffy and Crim announced it in a way that allowed Fluffy to keep privacy and dignity.
Second: During this period, a "manifesto' was written by Fluffy addressed to the site, attacking the staff, and leaking personal conversations. It was posted in Ask sStaff.
Third: Due to this, which was very much a breach of the earlier understanding, and never should have posted, conducted a vote of removal, as Fluffy was clearly not willing to address the previous, privately-discussed issues.
Is it your view that every conflict within the staff, no matter how it is resolved, should be aired in full to the site, regardless of the feelings of the people involved?
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Post by Ryuusei Igarashi on May 18, 2019 18:37:12 GMT -4
If you say so... The only thing that I have to reply to that is that writing a passive-agressive comment towards me when I was asked by a Staff Member to give my opinion here and I wrote everything in the most respectable way that I could doesn't really seem fair, but okay.
EDIT:
To clarify, what I ultimately wanted to get across was that instead of just saying: "Admin X is out" it would be better to be more honest and say more or less what was said in the post signed by most of the Staff: "Look, Staff talked and came to the conclusion that, because of y and z, Admin X needs to step out. We'll be re-evaluating a few thing and, hopefully, welcome him/her back". This because just having a vague comment about such a major decision (in this case made worse due to Fluffy being hugely involved in creating TP) naturally sounds some alarms, whether justified or not.
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Post by DrTentacles on May 18, 2019 18:40:37 GMT -4
Feedback should be based on an understanding of the events. If the events are misunderstood, Feedback can't help us, as staff, improve.
I am sorry I was heated. It's frustrated having continued comments based on an false account of events, or that demand action that was already taken, but overlooked.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 18:45:02 GMT -4
I apologize. From this point, forward staff will not be responding until members have had their chance to give input on the discussion. Again, remember that this is a discussion on how best to manage things in the future, and how you would like staff to take member input and criticism. There is already a place to discuss what happened, I would like to discuss how best to go from here.
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Post by Lani Bijan on May 18, 2019 19:33:29 GMT -4
There's always going to be division and heated temperments among the staff. It's just the way things are when dealing with other people. I don't know how exactly things went down or that there was this strife within the staff at all, so I don't have too many thought on the specifics. I will give my piece about a few things though.
What Narl brought up about plots and stuff that Chary and Kyou started I think deserves a good look at. It feels like as a member I'm just along for whatever ride staff feels like throwing us. I know members are free to start up their own stuff, I have multiple times to varying success, but many don't even know that they can. I made a pretty large post in the topic so I hope staff read everything over from everyone's input.
Staff is WAY too tight-lipped about things. Especially regarding the change in rules and systems. Members have literally no input at all and things are just done and announced after. I understand that staff is the staff and they make and enforce the rules. But Some things are just done without knowing if the members want it or not. There's no input or discussion, just what the few staff judge personally. We are all on this site; staff and members. I think letting us have opinions as well would be great. There have been quite a few times where I brought up something about the rules and have been told that I shouldn't bring it up publicly and should speak my suggestions or criticisms behind closed doors via PM or DM. Even when other members piped up and felt the same way about something I brought up, I was looked down upon by certain staff members. It feels like members have no power at all and are just here to do whatever staff demands of them and that is not a good feeling.
It's not just me either. I have spoken to other members that have become frustrated because some staff just assumes their intentions without asking them what they really want. It's like they aren't actually listening to what a member says and instead assumes their intentions and act on that instead. It's terrible and accusatory. And, of course, it all has to happen behind closed doors so no one else is aware of when things like this happen. The staff has quite a vice grip on everything and it's suffocating, especially when criticisms or questioning things is almost always met with "It just is, do it we leave, or banned if you argue any further."
That said, on a lighter note. I dunno if that manifesto was accurate or not, but it has been a year and ain't nobody Bakugo level yet. Only one person has reached the second rank and no one has a B rank skill. I don't know if the staff is still keeping to that or not, but if they are, things are moving slowly.
Also, never stats, please. Freeform is life. Freeform is love.
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Post by Guest on May 18, 2019 20:34:03 GMT -4
A few things.
1: Democracy is about compromise, not an excuse to ignore the minority.
I know a lot of members have struggled with this over the events, and it's a fair concern to have. That those with other opinions are being disregarded. The language used recently has strengthened this point and very much made hurt the unity of the site.
Ignoring other viewpoints solely because 'it's just a few people' is foolish and wrong.
Talking about other staff in a separate server, and claiming they're just being used by 'the other side' is not conducive to a welcoming democracy. The very existence of a separate place where some staff are excluded, and their DMs posted, and talked about is not conducive to a cooperative community.
Please consider that compromise is one of the best things in a healthy community.
2: Events, and why they've not been great.
The events have all sounded pretty great on paper. An area goes up, people explore the new setting, get involved in new plots, then a big finale caps things off.
Things have tended to stumble on that last point.
Threads in the new areas? Great. Most of the storyteller stuff? Awesome. Yet the last 3 events: Semper Fi, Reign of Babel, Sports Festival, have all been greatly hurt by poorly managed finales. They drag on and impede site plots, they lend to this feeling of stagnation more than anything else on the site. Why is that?
Post order and how it's misused.
Threads with a strict posting order work for, at maximum, threads of about 4 people. A thread with, say, 8 people, that doesn't even finish because it drags on despite everyone posting on time, is a prime example of how a posting order can be misused. Even if everyone posts on time, the lack of haste makes each posting round slow as hell.
If people don't post on time? Well, there are people on here that'll go a month without posting if you let them. Don't need to say what that does to finales.
Posting order only really works if a) the number of people is relatively small and/or b) the one running things is willing to break that posting order to keep events running smoothly and quickly. Even skipping people if necessary. Failure to do these results in slow, stagnating event threads that have left a lot of members disappointed.
Event finales should be big, exciting, bombastic finishers that leave everyone on the edge of their seats. Some have been that, some have not. Good use of posting order has generally been what's separated the good and the bad.
As an aside, slow events are particularly harmful if they're DE, and act as a wall between people and future plots. In such a case, quick events are a must.
Please consider how events have been run with regards to posting order, and how to ensure exciting and quick events in the future.
*Note: Of course, slow event runners hurt things without even considering posting order, but that's mainly a matter of allocating storytellers wisely.
3: Open threads are great! Make it easier for people to hear about them.
Open threads are dank. They let you thread with new people, they let new members jump in without the awkwardness of going to people for plots and threads. It's unfortunately not too easy to get an idea of what open threads are out there though.
The group finder channel can let you advertise yeah, but you can just as easily quickly find your stuff buried by other people posting or talking (even though they're not supposed to, it happens). It's hard to get an idea what's out there.
My suggestion? An open thread roster. Simply, a place on site where people can have their open threads listed for others to peek in and join. A lobby for the open threads currently running, to let people engage in them more.
Please consider making open threads that bit more easy for people to hear about.
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Post by Rosey on May 19, 2019 4:07:00 GMT -4
Only thing I want to add is maybe keeping up with Bulletin. It's a great idea as many things on this website and mostly Discord made me feel that it's so much easier to start interacting with others based on other sites I was but Bulletin is going slow and that's not the point of it.
Maybe there should be a bit more concrete of what should be in the bulletin channel or not, it was already a step forward that there was a thread on the site for it instead of asking mods but in this way it's not working unfortunately.
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Post by Charles Carter on May 19, 2019 16:03:25 GMT -4
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Post by Ziengale on May 19, 2019 19:31:11 GMT -4
It might be kind of random, but I myself wouldn't mind seeing something similarly done for mundane ranking as was done for the wealth 'rankings'. I'm not sure how feasible or even useful this would be, but at the very least I would like to see a more concrete, on site definition, as while I am aware of the "Best in Tokyo, Best in Japan, Best Worldwide", it is very likely others don't.
Might save some headaches of constantly answering the questions, though I might be biased and just think it sounds neat to be able to see charts that would give a vague understanding of how good your character should be at a particular skill.
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Post by Tetsuko Shindou on May 19, 2019 20:46:04 GMT -4
Just a random thought quickie, but a changeup of how the secondary clubs/groups channel is used could be an idea. I get the idea of not crowding the discord too much, but it's kinda just killed a lot of the club or group based discussion cause people don't check the club server. I kinda came to this thought cause I realized ain't no one sent a message there in ages, not in any of the clubs I'm in at least. I don't think having the club channels in the main discord server would hurt tbh, particularly when tagging some groups is actually quite handy.
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