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Post by ♥ Captain UwU ♠ (Minty) on Aug 11, 2020 8:24:03 GMT -4
Sidekicks! Questions, comments, suggestions and concerns!
Hello, hello everyone! I noticed a lot of people had plenty to say and their own reasons for wanting to get their concerns out there about the future of the Sidekick qualifications. So here we are, a nice little place for everyone to leave any and all questions, comments, suggestions and concerns when the staff collectively discuss the details of how Sidekicks will be approved!
I'm going to humbly request that we continue keeping a good attitude and be positively constructive in our discussions. Whether you like the idea of Sidekicks being approved right away or not, please be tactful and respectful in any disagreements you may have with another person's view.
Love you guys and hope this helps everyone get anything they want to share viewed without getting drowned in the void known as the general channel! We're all just trying to help one another and make this site as fun as possible, thank you very much for your time in reading this little note ^^ !
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Post by Yumi on Aug 11, 2020 8:33:33 GMT -4
I've said it mostly in the open chats on discord but I'll make sure my thoughts are here so people have something to referance. not looking to debate just airing my feelings on the matter.
I just personally don't like the idea of sidekicks existing yet. As a lore reason for it we were told to some extent it was a rough phase between education and full pro hero-dom for people who graduated but weren't yet an adult age. Everyone has to be a sidekick for a year as part of the process but it was mostly pitched as just "Your not an adult yet, you can't be a pro" with the addendum that you have to be a sidekick for at least a year OR until your 18, whichever is longer.
Seeing people app directly into this stage is oddly uncomfortable to me. The idea presented to me was that this was a weening stage for people who went through education but couldn't quite be called a pro yet due to a lack of age or experience. Seeing people app into it without the first year of graduates feels... belittling to the effort? I guess? The site has clear rules on it's timeline and how the world works. You can't have teenage pros, you can't have students that are too old and... well in a real world situation, lore wise? Sorry if your stuck in the middle you're sadly just kinda... screwed. It happens. But in the real world version of this your character would just wait to be an adult and apply for a hero exam or something.
When the first years graduate i really wouldn't care who becomes a sidekick. you can just say they graduated from other schools, but right now sidekicks as a role shouldn't actually exist, mostly because it's the equivalent of, a year ago, someone apping into a third year student.... when only second years existed. lore wise it dosn't add up and to have sidekicks existing before they logicallly should...
I dunno. At the end of the day it's something i know i shouldn't be fussy about, this is just a rp site afterall, but it DOES make me feel uncomfortable. The sidekick stage was dropped on us in the third year officially like an extra level of the education process, and seeing someone skip directly to that stage while im sticking to the flow as i should feels bothersome, and im gonna stop here because i know my argument mostly just boils down to
"I can't explain it fully, but it makes me uncomfortable to see."
PS edit, ive been told the sidekick to pro transition age may be 20. sorry if i got that wrong
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Post by Jar Star Assistant. on Aug 11, 2020 8:47:39 GMT -4
Personally I think sidekicks should just be a limited list perhaps much like pro's Maybe they need to wait for a pro spot to be open to even transition. But as for making them a list should be fine. It wouldn't really block anyone who are students. An if anything it'd just be cause that's what that person wants to rp given being a student already comes with a large amount of perks and events more centralized around them. I think a limited list for non school bound students who wish to start as a sidekick should be allowed then it can limit how many just decide to start there if they don't want to rp the student scene given not all want to rp the student style of characters. If they had to start as a sidekick and wait for a pro slot to open as well could help people be more plot heave if they really want such a decision as well. If anything its more just about what someone wants to rp given starting as a sidekick much like starting as a pro usually means you miss allot of the sweet privs students usually get from events to other rp opportunities.
So my suggestion is simply add a sidekick limited slot for the non students who wish to play a sidekick. And to become a pro a pro slot needs ot be available. Students can still become sidekicks as fluidly as planned as well. Allowing everyone to play what they want a little more freely.
However that being said! I can also see to a extent Yumis plight as well. I still have my opinion but if we choose to make sidekicks need to wait until graduation as Yumi mentioned. I think it should still be limited for non student pathed people like pro heroes. Whether its before graduation or after if you don't go through the school a list to limit it and lead into the pros seems the best way to balance it or make sidekicks made without being students take a pro slot and just have sidekick role as for roleplay sakes.
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Post by ST-Jess on Aug 11, 2020 8:59:38 GMT -4
While I have few feelings on whether we should/should not have sidekicks or how many we have, personally I find the title rather... Underwhelming, and honestly belittling to those who currently occupy said status? In fact, I dislike it so much that I have my own pro (Maya) refer to the apprentices that she has as 'partners' rather than 'sidekicks' because she thinks the term undermines even students?
From what I understand of Sidekicks, they're effectively independent heroes that sort of have a full pro to supervise and coordinate them, someone who is basically responsible for them? To me, that felt like say Sheriff's or Marshall's in the old west era, and to that end I happened to suggest that the group be renamed Deputies since they act as a deputy to the duty of a pro hero? It feels a bit more grown up to say you're a Deputy, or Deputy Hero, than saying you're a sidekick since that largely, to me at least, makes me think of either Robin or the various 'step down' junior heroes like say Wonder Girl, Aqua Lad, Bean Boy, etc? To me, it offers a sense of responsibility, while still pointing out these guys aren't full fledged yet, and seems a damn sight more important a position than 'sidekick'.
I know this isn't as huge an issue as other things, but personally it stands out to me as an important issue to be amended, even if it goes against the 'grain' of canon? But then, we've already diverged away from the canon source pretty far with the fact that the first heroes appeared in Japan, no the USA (Rhode Island specifically), so to me it makes sense that the lingo would be different since it would have less of a classic comic book basis?
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Post by Mia Kearney on Aug 11, 2020 9:35:59 GMT -4
only thing ill toss in is it is the official title in universe. its not meant to be demeaning. its just turning "sidekick" into a job title. its just the in universe term.
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Post by ST-Jess on Aug 11, 2020 9:47:30 GMT -4
Yeah, as I said it would be going against canon, but then it would make sense that certain things would be different because... Source: bokunoheroacademia.fandom.com/wiki/Heroes#List_of_Pro_HeroesSource Ref: bokunoheroacademia.fandom.com/wiki/Chapter_12_(Vigilantes)Inherently the terminology of the Pro Hero system in canon would be heavily influenced by an american origin, which naturally one would guess is based in comic books as the most readily available influence on the whole Super Powered Hero concept. However, our canon is different. Not only did it start in Japan but also the USA still, to my knowledge, is lacking for a hero system so the vernacular wouldn't be readily developed? While we could say that it was still influenced by the comic book media, we're not bound by it either so if we felt like upgrading the term, I'd consider it a viable option? |
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Post by Jar Star Assistant. on Aug 11, 2020 10:02:24 GMT -4
I personally like the side kick and wording, and to be fair it’s also just the name of the faction you can refer to them iCly as you please. I’m sure not all villains call themselves super villains like a comic strip. It’s more just the faction titles. The more issue is people when being allowed to join said roll. I still stick to a list similar to pros if not going student route and later taking a pro slot when viable
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Post by Mia Kearney on Aug 11, 2020 10:29:07 GMT -4
yeah i mean i get what your saying and on an individual level everyone ahs the right to relabel their sidekicks how they want but as an overall term i like the point that turning these terms into job titles is inherently off and theatrical? being a hero as a job title deforms its purpose as a word which is he purpose of somenof the shows main points. sidekick similarly. your not a lesser hero for being one and we can referance one hell of a sidekick in lemillion to say as much
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Post by Risaka Reinacht on Aug 11, 2020 11:06:14 GMT -4
Looking over the responses I can see a common path to where to take this, so heres my take on it.
Mentioned several times it is wether if the title should be open or regulated, but I believe its not about how to distribute it, but rather how we word it. Sidekick for sure is a whole different spectrum despite being maybe a few steps away from a Pro Hero. In BNHA's world, it is easy to take inspiration from western media, and we shouldn't try to discourage such inspiration. The way I see it is that Sidekicks is more than crucial when it comes to development, for both the sidekick and the Pro Hero taking them under their wing. Every knows what 'sidekick' is, but we all also see it differently, so it is important that we word the official position 'Sidekick' with proper care, just the same way we treat the important factors with BNHA Pro Heroes.
What I'm trying to get at is that Sidekicks, at least on an official standpoint, should be explained thoroughly, that way everyone can have the same view of them OOC. To avoid the mentioned demeaning things we really should make it clear what Sidekicks has as a role in the hero society in our fictional world. Yes, sidekicks will always be viewed and given 'less' by the public eye, but it is kinda mandatory to be like that. A student who just finishes their three years can't just flip a switch and be a hero on the spot. The eaiest way to know who has experience or not is by looking at their age, no need to make it more complex on that point. A Sidekick is also a very important role for the Pro Hero themselves, considering the fact the Pro Hero has not only chosen the Sidekick, but also acknowledges them to be by their side. That alone already gives the Sidekick so much credit. Sidekick is not supposed to be something else, they are someone helping and learning from someone with years of experience, I believe a Pro Hero who once was a Sidekick is extremely valuable.
Now, to the issue of the spots. As earlier mentioned, the Sidekick role should be stated to be official, while non-official sidekicks still exist, specially among vigilantes. I agree that someone shooting straight for the official Sidekick role can be a bit fruitless, or we can give the option the same way we allow people to make starter packs, but then it'll cause a bigger gap between heroes and villains unfortunately. I can fully understand someone not wanting to wait three years, but that gives me the idea to make an alternative path.
For those who are too old (and perhaps too young to apply for Pro hero) can take maybe I don't know, a four month trial (or the needed amount for them to turn old enough)? A time period where we can see activity and if their character is fit to join the pro hero scene. Not only does it make the player have to put in effort, but also can be seen reasonable if given criteria is fulfilled.
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Post by Jar Star Assistant. on Aug 11, 2020 11:13:22 GMT -4
As long as it still has a list and controlled as pro slots are, otherwise it’s just a easier path compared to students. I think non student path (whatever it’s labeled) still need to be under the same ruling such as those that pros given the listing and slots
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Post by Yumi on Aug 11, 2020 14:26:45 GMT -4
to respond to Risaka's comments, i think apping into the sidekick role is fine, just *Not Yet*. It feels lore wise like a role that should only exist when the first set of students graduate. After that you can just app straight into it. Like how people are currently apping directly into second year students because they'd prefer to have a student who is already a little older. Once sidekicks are, lore wise, a thing, it's fair game, this all to me just feels like someone apping into a third year back when Yumi was a second year. Third years as a concept just didn't exist, lore wise yet.
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Post by ♥ Captain UwU ♠ (Minty) on Aug 12, 2020 1:21:09 GMT -4
Before I pitch my suggestion, I wanna say I'm not opposed to sidekicks being apped right off the bat 'o' mostly because when I first joined, I recall looking at the rules and they were an option no one really took up until very recently. However, I can definitely see the points that are being made about how the first generation of grads are planned to be Sidekicks. Thankfully, there is a strong consideration for those at age 20 who graduated can become Pro Heroes. Which makes sense to me 'o' this is a great idea because the students who go through graduation EARN that position, they also have experience through internships and apprenticeships, so yes, it absolutely would make sense if they were allowed to be heroes at 20, I completely support this notion ^u^ but if it doesn't happen, I'd respect that decision. Again, just seems like a very good idea since so many people invest YEARS in a character and a lot happens in that span of time.
Why do I feel like it should be okay for sidekicks to be apped right off the bat?
OOCly, I feel like if a member has established activity and isn't an app n' dasher, they should absolutely be allowed to have a Sidekick option. It's because as a member who has been here for around 3 months or so, you can get a lot of really good ideas and there's so much potential for character development. You get to know more people, discuss ideas with them and there's the chance you'll have a character slot and the desire to make a Sidekick to someone's Pro Hero. I personally feel like it's a missed opportunity if Pro Heroes aren't allowed to take in a Sidekick, whether it's a student, vigilante, government, or civilian with potential and that Pro Hero SEES said potential. Done right, it'll make for an amazing story and follow along with character development on both sides of the spectrum, as long as both the Pro Hero and Sidekick RPers discussed the plot with one another. The Mod or Admin grading the app making sure that they clarify with the Pro Hero's RPer that the history and plot connected to their character is okay with them prior to approval. This is the ONLY WAY I see Sidekicks being apped off the bat being okay, established members who have an awesome plot and want to see it happen.
That being said, I am firmly against the idea of a freshly apped Sidekick without out any plot or planning to connect with a Pro Hero off the bat because from an all around view point? That makes no sense what so ever and they might as well be either a vigilante, civilian or government assigned and see if a Pro Hero actually wants them as a Sidekick.
STUDENTS, upon graduation, I'm assuming will be getting recruited under/assigned to an agency (x amount of months for 20 year olds maybe if the staff chooses to go the let the graduated 20 year olds be officially listed as pros?). I feel like by default, they'll have way more of an advantage and opportunities, the upper hand versus off the bat apped Sidekicks. They'll be far more qualified than someone off the app and have far more lee-way, I think 'o' that's how my brain's always taken it to be honest ^u^;;;; Plus, Students have the flexibility to REMAIN Sidekicks or BECOME Pro Heroes if they wish 'u' !
On that note! I want to say that I feel like those who off the bat app sidekicks should not be allowed to transition into a pro hero. I feel like if someone apps a sidekick, that locks that character out from becoming an agency lead/Pro Hero and the only routes from there via sagas for faction changes would be Vigilante, Villain, Civi or Govt Assigned. The only time an apped off the bat sidekick should be allowed to transition into a pro is if THEIR Agency Lead/PC Pro Hero is either retiring or killed in action, then having a saga where the mantle gets passed on to them.
Let's talk about apped off the bat sidekick slot potential! I think there should be maybe 1 or 2 slots PER PRO HERO to have an off the bat app sidekick, NPCs NOT INCLUDED. Then cap the amount of off the bat sidekicks an RPer may have to be fair 'u' !
But yus! Those are my ideas ^o^ ! I still like to hope and think that Sagas to recruit a sidekick from vigi, civi, etc should be an option if they aren't already (which I've assumed have been tbh! OuO;;; ! ) because yay character development and cool story potential! >u<
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Post by Burabura Buruburu on Aug 12, 2020 2:15:08 GMT -4
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Post by Lyra Amaryllis on Aug 12, 2020 4:41:48 GMT -4
Snapu here[break]
After reading everyone's ideas I think that we're mostly on the same page? Jumping off what Minty said I like the idea of establishing a system for nonstudent sidekicks. My biggest concern would be the limitation of Pro Heroes and Sidekicks vs. Villains. If they're opposing forces IMO it wouldn't make as much sense to have people be able to make like 1000 villains but only have 1-2 sidekicks/pros? Seems like a way to get a big imbalance as it's not like villains have to do any OOC waiting time like the students do to become a sidekick that way.[break]
I'm firmly in the camp of limiting Pro Heroes as we currently do, but for sidekicks, I'd like to list what I think (based on this discussion) about the things that have been talked about so far.[break]
- A system being put in place after the first generation of student sidekicks are ready is a great idea. I think that using that as a benchmark would be perfect as I can understand Yumi's point of not wanting to diminish the hard work of everyone else. However I would say as a newcomer It would be kind...annoying? To join and have a sidekick character in mind only to be told "Sorry you weren't here two years ago when the site opened. Gotta wait for three years." to me, that seems more like gatekeeping or a (pardon my language) fuck you, got mine mentality. I'd be personally perfectly fine with waiting until students have graduated for the first round, but after that, I say it should be first come first served.[break]
- Limited Slots for Pro Heroes to have non-student sidekicks. As long as these slots are not a 1 to 1 ratio I think it would be a great idea. Like this circles back to my point earlier of the disparity between 'Good vs. Evil' in the sense of Heroes vs. Villains. IMO if it would work like that I think it should be separated into each Pro can have as many student graduate sidekicks as possible, but say straight apped ones you could have 3 slots total. Which would mean that a pro could have say 10 sidekicks but only 3 of them could be ones that were apped. I think this works mostly because of two reasons.[break]
1. The students who get to graduate and go through the full process still gain a benefit from doing so in the same vein as students being able to become Pro Heroes regardless of slots. This way even if a Pro has apped sidekicks already a graduate student can just go where they please. I should emphasize that I would be EXTREMELY AGAINST the idea that Sidekicks that aren't matriculated from U.A would be limited the same as Pro Heroes. If Apped Sidekicks aren't able to ever become Pros there should be at a bare minimum DOUBLE the available slots as Pros currently have imo.[break]
2. It allows the balancing of 'adult' heroes as given the strict rules of U.A the hero to villain ratio of those who can operate outside of a schooling environment is skewed currently. This is much more of my own personal view, but for events in the future, I think having more active people on the 'good' side would be beneficial especially for larger-scale events where it's hard to justify a first-year running around by themselves.[break]
- The title of Sidekick personally doesn't bother me. As long as it has the same meaning to everyone and the responsibilities are the same I see no issue.[break]
- I think overall Minty put it best as I circle back to my initial point. I can understand WHY it bothers some people, but as I mentioned in discord earlier students who went through the full training of U.A already have tons of advantages. From plot potential, exp, abilities, etc. Say most students who go fully through the entire training end up at B Rank? That's still much higher than most straight-up apped sidekicks and even a lot of Pros. (A little IRL example) To me the argument boils down to the same logic behind people who say college/university shouldn't be free because they had to pay for it. Like...why would you want people to have to go through the same process you did? What benefit does that have? It's not like you who already finished schooling will get your accomplishments taken away. I understand the frustration of like "Man I wish I could have done it that way" but change is good yeah? We don't want to stagnate.[break]
For a tl;dr
1. I'm okay with apped Sidekicks even if it's after the Third Years graduate
2. I think the slots for apped sidekicks should be limited (2-3 per Pro Hero)
3. I think that before you app a sidekick you should need permission from the Pro Hero you're joining (Keep an active list of who's assigned where)
4. Apped Sidekicks should be just that SIDEKICKS. No turning into a Pro.
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Post by Yumi on Aug 12, 2020 5:24:10 GMT -4
i just wanna make it clear one last time just cause im paranoid I look like an asshole when people read my poor wording is im at the back end of what snapu said about aping into it compared to people going through the 3 years. Im absolutely fine with sidekicks being apped into, I just don't think it should be possible until the first set of graduates become sidekicks, otherwise it's jumping the cue to a step in the cue that doesn't even exist yet.
otherwise, pretty much fine, I don't mind the sidekick title I think it's thematic and pleasant, I don't actually think sidekicks should be a limited slot since given another year there could be tonnes of them, and I don't personally think asking people to wait till sidekicks 'become a thing' is all that bad. it's about half a year away which I know is still annoying for a new member but its not all that different from telling them the pro hero slots are full.
(As a side note im HALF sure pro hero slots are limited because heroes tend to be vastly more popular than playing villains, so while I think the limits should be removed as graduating students break those limits, I can understand why they're in place as currently the heros, while fewer in number, regularly tend to out-match their villain counterparts. As far as im aware Niso is the only B rank villain while there are at least 5 B rank heroes I can think of including students, 2 if you don't, and both those B rank pros arevery close to A rank.)
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