Post by Yumi on May 11, 2020 19:47:22 GMT -4
Okay so this is gonna be a bit out of order. I basically typed up a venting rant of my issues and how they've come about, but didn't want that to be the first thing people see. It is still below if anyone wants a glimpse into where I'm coming from but I will copy and paste ONLY the last paragraph as a precursor to my actual suggestion. It also opens up a bit about something I don't feel like i can vent about on the discord.
"Anyway. the key point is that with it's reliance on post counts, to pull sagas off we need ST, or to forcibly insert other characters into more personal stories we might want to tell. Niso "goes off screen for a while and does some cool stuff" both isn't fun from a writing perspective and dosn't gain the rewards of a saga, so you have to work with others which... isn't a bad thing, but can lead to complications, and.... honestly my desire to involve others in my stuff feels like it's shooting me in the foot and i'm becoming very defeated. I've started feeling like someone will post like the wind when it's 'their stuff' but the moment I wanna get my stuff done... everything grinds to a halt. Anyway. Solution time."
Solution 1: Solo Saga Efforts
I believe this would be a good step forward. People can make, iF THEY WISH, a solo post to count towards their saga. Every 200 words is 1 post so if i had a solo thread, earning me 10 exp, but consisting of 1200 words, i'd get 6 posts towards my saga. Not really all that much, and if I STed the same thing I'd probably get closer to 15 posts minimum between us.
That being said, it'd mean i don't need an ST to control every NPC i encounter to pad out my post count, or to pad out my post count generally for the story i want to tell. Even if I decided "right, i'm gonna post 10'000 words in one solo", it'd be an immense effort as I'm sure any writer can imagine and i'd still be locked out of my next saga for months, so it's not like i'd be cheating my exp gains.
Potential issue + Solution
This could lead to a lot of people trying to make big plot pushes without the aid of people around them or just discouraging co-operation. I wouldn't say it reduces effort at all to be clear, as someone like Maya hits 200 words ish almost every post (tell a lie they've been hitting higher word counts i'm really liking their writing lately but they're a strong example all the same) and only needs to personally hit half the wordcount someone doing a solo effort would, since half maya's posts if not more come from someone else.
A simple solution and one i think i'd like to see regardless is "Solo efforts can only count for 20 posts of your saga". that way 4000 words is the maximum someone can do on their own, and they still have to make some collaborative effort. It'd reduce potential strain on STs for those who like to do solo stories and allow the person who's saga it is more creative control over that story.
Solution 2: Removal of saga limit
Originally I liked my first idea more but when I got this one going i actually preferred it more. Bottom line would be "you can have any number of sagas active, BUT you can only start a new one every 3 months", generally the same limitations, but you don't feel say, 'punished' if you can't finish within the 3 months. As that both delays your next saga, and technically every saga after that in turn.
Basically when you make your saga that is it. From then on, 01/01, that is your original creation point. If your saga is still running at 01/04, you can make another alongside it. Not exactly your fault your muse dissapeared midway through february, or your friends did. Why mechanically be punished? it also means anyone, like me, who might be holding a personal plot back because it can't be a saga yet, dosn't have to wait. I'd also think the deadlines would be consistant. So if you make your first saga 01/01, and don't make a saga up until 01/07, you are up to 3 sagas total you can run *if you so choose*.
We could, alternatively, remove the idea that you can't add in threads you've already made prior to the saga approval. That would mean plots can start at any point and be put up for saga rewards when the previous saga has been fully completed.
An issue here is people could plot a lot of more 'site changy' level things in private, rp them out, put a saga up for approval, but the saga gets denied and they've already done all the things that wouldn't have been allowed, so I prefer my initial solution of "You can have a saga every 3 months, there's no limit on how many sagas you can have at a time.
The rest of this is my venting i mentioned earlier. No real need to read.
So as i touched on when i was blowing some steam earlier (thank you doc for putting up with me and being so level headed) I've had a bit of an issue when it comes to completing my sagas on site. Namely the fact some of the stories i feel are saga worthy require STs and STs aren't always reliable. It's not an insult, just a fact to put on the table. Some aren't terribly fast posters, some plots people need an ST for won't strike their muse (I think part of why niso's ST request never got picked up is because of the theme of it).
But, we can't really do much to change how ST's run as far as i can think of without making it more a job than something they do out of their own choice. So here's my potential work around to the issue i'm feeling. Instead I'd like to try and rework sagas.
Currently, as I understand them, Sagas are a way to motivate people to chase their own plots for good exp rewards so people aren't just waiting for the next event and are constantly motivated by their own plots. *However*. Ways in which these are graded makes them very different from the rest of the site's methods of gaining exp. Namely the requirement of a post count over relying on a word count. As such HUGE exp dumps for both students and other groupings even more so, I can appreciate the fact it isn't exclusionary to people who can't hit those high word counts.
The issue comes when a story your trying to tell involves an NPC. Now of course you have two options. Find another person to rp the scene with you, but you control the NPC. Easily done. My character Niso takes Luzia with them to meet an NPC. I play niso and the npc, Teki plays Luzia. Option 2 is requesting a storyteller. No guarentee those are getting picked up any time soon.
Now Sagas can already be VERY finicky. Across roughly 5 characters i believe i've actively completed 1 saga in the timespan that should have allowed for two each. As doc will know *Multiple* times the people i needed for a plot just dissapeared and i heavily had to re-work or remake a saga entirely, but in two distinct cases and perhaps more in the future, im in situations where my characters wouldn't take another PC with them, would meet an NPC alone, and i NEED an ST there, cause I need to pad out the POST COUNT to meet the requirements for a saga. A saga that i feel is important to my character's development too so im in a bit of a limbo plot wise in a situation where i have no direct person i know if i can rely on or not.
Now to cover some points. This is further frustrating because of the one saga at a time rule. I can't have Niso say, do a saga in january, and start another in May if the first isn't finished. THis means I've been putting some of his other plans on hold, cause i think they're saga worthy, but i feel i can't get the most out of that plot if i don't wait till it can be a saga.
Now of course i've heard the argument that "You should be here just to rp and have fun." But I can't. Partly it's just not how my brain works, i like to see the numbers go up simple as that. Mostly though, the system and the rp are linked. We can't really brush that under the rug. If I want Mia to have a badass moment where she does X, i need the exp investment to pull X off, so i need to be gaining exp to the best of my abilities.
Anyway. the key point is that with it's reliance on post counts, to pull sagas off we need ST, or to forcibly insert other characters into more personal stories we might want to tell. Niso "goes off screen for a while and does some cool stuff" both isn't fun from a writing perspective and dosn't gain the rewards of a saga, so you have to work with others which... isn't a bad thing, but can lead to complications, and.... honestly my desire to involve others in my stuff feels like it's shooting me in the foot and i'm becoming very defeated. I've started feeling like someone will post like the wind when it's 'their stuff' but the moment I wanna get my stuff done... everything grinds to a halt. Anyway. Solution time.
"Anyway. the key point is that with it's reliance on post counts, to pull sagas off we need ST, or to forcibly insert other characters into more personal stories we might want to tell. Niso "goes off screen for a while and does some cool stuff" both isn't fun from a writing perspective and dosn't gain the rewards of a saga, so you have to work with others which... isn't a bad thing, but can lead to complications, and.... honestly my desire to involve others in my stuff feels like it's shooting me in the foot and i'm becoming very defeated. I've started feeling like someone will post like the wind when it's 'their stuff' but the moment I wanna get my stuff done... everything grinds to a halt. Anyway. Solution time."
Solution 1: Solo Saga Efforts
I believe this would be a good step forward. People can make, iF THEY WISH, a solo post to count towards their saga. Every 200 words is 1 post so if i had a solo thread, earning me 10 exp, but consisting of 1200 words, i'd get 6 posts towards my saga. Not really all that much, and if I STed the same thing I'd probably get closer to 15 posts minimum between us.
That being said, it'd mean i don't need an ST to control every NPC i encounter to pad out my post count, or to pad out my post count generally for the story i want to tell. Even if I decided "right, i'm gonna post 10'000 words in one solo", it'd be an immense effort as I'm sure any writer can imagine and i'd still be locked out of my next saga for months, so it's not like i'd be cheating my exp gains.
Potential issue + Solution
This could lead to a lot of people trying to make big plot pushes without the aid of people around them or just discouraging co-operation. I wouldn't say it reduces effort at all to be clear, as someone like Maya hits 200 words ish almost every post (tell a lie they've been hitting higher word counts i'm really liking their writing lately but they're a strong example all the same) and only needs to personally hit half the wordcount someone doing a solo effort would, since half maya's posts if not more come from someone else.
A simple solution and one i think i'd like to see regardless is "Solo efforts can only count for 20 posts of your saga". that way 4000 words is the maximum someone can do on their own, and they still have to make some collaborative effort. It'd reduce potential strain on STs for those who like to do solo stories and allow the person who's saga it is more creative control over that story.
Solution 2: Removal of saga limit
Originally I liked my first idea more but when I got this one going i actually preferred it more. Bottom line would be "you can have any number of sagas active, BUT you can only start a new one every 3 months", generally the same limitations, but you don't feel say, 'punished' if you can't finish within the 3 months. As that both delays your next saga, and technically every saga after that in turn.
Basically when you make your saga that is it. From then on, 01/01, that is your original creation point. If your saga is still running at 01/04, you can make another alongside it. Not exactly your fault your muse dissapeared midway through february, or your friends did. Why mechanically be punished? it also means anyone, like me, who might be holding a personal plot back because it can't be a saga yet, dosn't have to wait. I'd also think the deadlines would be consistant. So if you make your first saga 01/01, and don't make a saga up until 01/07, you are up to 3 sagas total you can run *if you so choose*.
We could, alternatively, remove the idea that you can't add in threads you've already made prior to the saga approval. That would mean plots can start at any point and be put up for saga rewards when the previous saga has been fully completed.
An issue here is people could plot a lot of more 'site changy' level things in private, rp them out, put a saga up for approval, but the saga gets denied and they've already done all the things that wouldn't have been allowed, so I prefer my initial solution of "You can have a saga every 3 months, there's no limit on how many sagas you can have at a time.
The rest of this is my venting i mentioned earlier. No real need to read.
So as i touched on when i was blowing some steam earlier (thank you doc for putting up with me and being so level headed) I've had a bit of an issue when it comes to completing my sagas on site. Namely the fact some of the stories i feel are saga worthy require STs and STs aren't always reliable. It's not an insult, just a fact to put on the table. Some aren't terribly fast posters, some plots people need an ST for won't strike their muse (I think part of why niso's ST request never got picked up is because of the theme of it).
But, we can't really do much to change how ST's run as far as i can think of without making it more a job than something they do out of their own choice. So here's my potential work around to the issue i'm feeling. Instead I'd like to try and rework sagas.
Currently, as I understand them, Sagas are a way to motivate people to chase their own plots for good exp rewards so people aren't just waiting for the next event and are constantly motivated by their own plots. *However*. Ways in which these are graded makes them very different from the rest of the site's methods of gaining exp. Namely the requirement of a post count over relying on a word count. As such HUGE exp dumps for both students and other groupings even more so, I can appreciate the fact it isn't exclusionary to people who can't hit those high word counts.
The issue comes when a story your trying to tell involves an NPC. Now of course you have two options. Find another person to rp the scene with you, but you control the NPC. Easily done. My character Niso takes Luzia with them to meet an NPC. I play niso and the npc, Teki plays Luzia. Option 2 is requesting a storyteller. No guarentee those are getting picked up any time soon.
Now Sagas can already be VERY finicky. Across roughly 5 characters i believe i've actively completed 1 saga in the timespan that should have allowed for two each. As doc will know *Multiple* times the people i needed for a plot just dissapeared and i heavily had to re-work or remake a saga entirely, but in two distinct cases and perhaps more in the future, im in situations where my characters wouldn't take another PC with them, would meet an NPC alone, and i NEED an ST there, cause I need to pad out the POST COUNT to meet the requirements for a saga. A saga that i feel is important to my character's development too so im in a bit of a limbo plot wise in a situation where i have no direct person i know if i can rely on or not.
Now to cover some points. This is further frustrating because of the one saga at a time rule. I can't have Niso say, do a saga in january, and start another in May if the first isn't finished. THis means I've been putting some of his other plans on hold, cause i think they're saga worthy, but i feel i can't get the most out of that plot if i don't wait till it can be a saga.
Now of course i've heard the argument that "You should be here just to rp and have fun." But I can't. Partly it's just not how my brain works, i like to see the numbers go up simple as that. Mostly though, the system and the rp are linked. We can't really brush that under the rug. If I want Mia to have a badass moment where she does X, i need the exp investment to pull X off, so i need to be gaining exp to the best of my abilities.
Anyway. the key point is that with it's reliance on post counts, to pull sagas off we need ST, or to forcibly insert other characters into more personal stories we might want to tell. Niso "goes off screen for a while and does some cool stuff" both isn't fun from a writing perspective and dosn't gain the rewards of a saga, so you have to work with others which... isn't a bad thing, but can lead to complications, and.... honestly my desire to involve others in my stuff feels like it's shooting me in the foot and i'm becoming very defeated. I've started feeling like someone will post like the wind when it's 'their stuff' but the moment I wanna get my stuff done... everything grinds to a halt. Anyway. Solution time.
