Post by Yumi Tasukai on Nov 12, 2019 8:11:03 GMT -4
So, in going back and forth with a few people, some topics causing issues, some just fairly answered questions, I see confusion around total exp, and would like to offer some solutions.
First, let's start with starter packs.
Starter Packs
Currently, if you spend 2 EP earned on a seperate character on a starter back (character A spends EP on character B) you gain up to a total exp count of 2000, allowing character B to spend a total of 2000 exp
However, if character A spends 500 exp to create EP, then spends it on himself, he hits 2000 total exp, by gaining 1500 exp to spend.
I think this is a poor way to handle this for a few key reasons
1 - It is more beneficial to spend exp from another character to enhance your starter pack
Simply put as above. Why on earth would i go through the hard work of enhancing my new hero or villain when the exp gained from my student gives me better results. If I use the hard work of my hero to gain 500 exp, I hit 2000 total exp, yes, but i only gain 1000 exp to spend. If i use my student to gain 500 exp to spend on my hero, i lose 500 on my student, sure, but i gain 2000 exp to spend, for net gains of 1500.
1500 > 1000.
Yes there are seperate logistics on their being no way to gain that 500 back on your student, but i generally think it's poor form that the hard work of your new character is discouraged. You need to spend the exp of another character for the absolute best rewards.
2 - It confuses total exp records
If you use 500 exp for a starter pack for a hero earned by that hero, you have 1500 exp used in your app, but 2000 exp on your 'total records'. This could easily create confusion when calculating. Say a member forgets that 500 exp that is only recorded in their progression sheet, and they count their Exp up through their app. They're 500 exp short of their actual total.
Here we have 3 possible scenarios
A- member thinks the 500 exp short version is their total, and works on faulty knowledge to plan for their nex trank up
B- member asks a mod to help, and, completely hypothetical mind, the mod dosn't think to check the progression sheet either and simply uses the app. Member's total exp on their profile may be edited down 500 exp as both parties think it was a mistake
C- Mod does check the progression sheet, the total exp is reassured to the member, but going forward, there is always the chance they forget about their progression sheet again when trying to add up their own total, and again, there is always a possibility of situation B if they ask for help again.
Now, I will emphasize, I think situation B is unlikely to happen, Situation C is the second most likely, but, if the member can trust their own math and is forgetful, like myself, situation A can easily be the most likely. I think all members should ask for help and get scenario C, but, the fact A and B even exist is an issue.
Solution
Simply make it so exp converted to EP is removed from total exp. It's no longer exp. It can be spent on new character slots or other characters. It's simply just not exp. This means if Yumi spends 500 exp to make EP for Mia, Yumi loses 500 and Mia gains 2000
If Mia uses 500 on herself, the hard work of 500 exp is still 'lost' for 2000 in gains, meaning both scenarios have a net gain of 1500
AND, total exp is tracked solely by the skills purchased for the app
We clearly have a LOT of confusion with how the rules currently are, there have been a fair few times were one person expresses their confusion about starter packs, a fair few others relate to that confusion, and then we just move on. I think this is a strong and simple solution. Exp is not EP. It's a clear and cut rule, albeit one that should maybe be written in more detail if taken up.
Lets move on to the next exp issue. Companions.
Companions
I'll save you some time. My solution for this remains the same. Albeit with a slight complication.
Now, I am going to preface this, with no maliciousness or means to 'call out', I will be using the confusion i had with Nimue to explain some of the confusion here. She is the only character i am aware of who has a companion, she is where my confusion stems from but I will also just vaguely use "character A - B" examples were possible. Nimue will just aid in showing my personal experience with my confusion here. Rosey, I want to emphasize the confusion here is in no way aimed at you, but the system of companions itself.
Now, lets state the complications
1 - Companions only count as total exp for the character IF the character earned it themselves.
Sporky provided this answer in ask staff. If character A spends EP to get character B a companion, character B does not gain 500 total exp. HOWEVER, if character A spends EP to get themselves a companion, they DO gain 500 total exp.
I don't think i need to state how this can be confusing, especially when trying to calculate your own total exp post companion.
2 - Companions come with mandatory slots
Companions when applied for, give the applyig character 3 additional skills. The F rank for having a companion, and 2 F ranks for the companion themselves. This is essentially 'free total exp' if calculated like this, and if not, further adds to the confusion of total exp.
During my calculations on Nimue, the closes I could get to her actual total exp, was to say the EP spent on her companion counted (500) but ALSO the mandatory F rank slot on the character (100) counted, turning 500 exp to 600 exp. Now, I have genuinely no idea if that additional 100 exp needs to be spent seperately (another issue i'll specify) because Nimue's progression sheet dosn't log how much her purchases cost, only her purchases.*
*(Rosey simply placed the lindwe F rank up for approval, Maya approved it. Neither party mentioned if the lindwe slot on Nimue's app cost 100 exp or not. But to emphasize, most of her progression sheet does not mention EXP spends, and most mods simply approve it without stating how it affects her current exp like they do when grading threads, so the confusion is generated by both parties. really the whole progression thread is confusing cause there's a point where she says she's spending 200 exp on two new abilities but only shows one it's a confusing situation but i digress. I wanna emphasize i don't want to seem like im attacking Rosey, just emphasizing WHY there's so much confusion for me here)
First, let's start with starter packs.
Starter Packs
Currently, if you spend 2 EP earned on a seperate character on a starter back (character A spends EP on character B) you gain up to a total exp count of 2000, allowing character B to spend a total of 2000 exp
However, if character A spends 500 exp to create EP, then spends it on himself, he hits 2000 total exp, by gaining 1500 exp to spend.
I think this is a poor way to handle this for a few key reasons
1 - It is more beneficial to spend exp from another character to enhance your starter pack
Simply put as above. Why on earth would i go through the hard work of enhancing my new hero or villain when the exp gained from my student gives me better results. If I use the hard work of my hero to gain 500 exp, I hit 2000 total exp, yes, but i only gain 1000 exp to spend. If i use my student to gain 500 exp to spend on my hero, i lose 500 on my student, sure, but i gain 2000 exp to spend, for net gains of 1500.
1500 > 1000.
Yes there are seperate logistics on their being no way to gain that 500 back on your student, but i generally think it's poor form that the hard work of your new character is discouraged. You need to spend the exp of another character for the absolute best rewards.
2 - It confuses total exp records
If you use 500 exp for a starter pack for a hero earned by that hero, you have 1500 exp used in your app, but 2000 exp on your 'total records'. This could easily create confusion when calculating. Say a member forgets that 500 exp that is only recorded in their progression sheet, and they count their Exp up through their app. They're 500 exp short of their actual total.
Here we have 3 possible scenarios
A- member thinks the 500 exp short version is their total, and works on faulty knowledge to plan for their nex trank up
B- member asks a mod to help, and, completely hypothetical mind, the mod dosn't think to check the progression sheet either and simply uses the app. Member's total exp on their profile may be edited down 500 exp as both parties think it was a mistake
C- Mod does check the progression sheet, the total exp is reassured to the member, but going forward, there is always the chance they forget about their progression sheet again when trying to add up their own total, and again, there is always a possibility of situation B if they ask for help again.
Now, I will emphasize, I think situation B is unlikely to happen, Situation C is the second most likely, but, if the member can trust their own math and is forgetful, like myself, situation A can easily be the most likely. I think all members should ask for help and get scenario C, but, the fact A and B even exist is an issue.
Solution
Simply make it so exp converted to EP is removed from total exp. It's no longer exp. It can be spent on new character slots or other characters. It's simply just not exp. This means if Yumi spends 500 exp to make EP for Mia, Yumi loses 500 and Mia gains 2000
If Mia uses 500 on herself, the hard work of 500 exp is still 'lost' for 2000 in gains, meaning both scenarios have a net gain of 1500
AND, total exp is tracked solely by the skills purchased for the app
We clearly have a LOT of confusion with how the rules currently are, there have been a fair few times were one person expresses their confusion about starter packs, a fair few others relate to that confusion, and then we just move on. I think this is a strong and simple solution. Exp is not EP. It's a clear and cut rule, albeit one that should maybe be written in more detail if taken up.
Lets move on to the next exp issue. Companions.
Companions
I'll save you some time. My solution for this remains the same. Albeit with a slight complication.
Now, I am going to preface this, with no maliciousness or means to 'call out', I will be using the confusion i had with Nimue to explain some of the confusion here. She is the only character i am aware of who has a companion, she is where my confusion stems from but I will also just vaguely use "character A - B" examples were possible. Nimue will just aid in showing my personal experience with my confusion here. Rosey, I want to emphasize the confusion here is in no way aimed at you, but the system of companions itself.
Now, lets state the complications
1 - Companions only count as total exp for the character IF the character earned it themselves.
Sporky provided this answer in ask staff. If character A spends EP to get character B a companion, character B does not gain 500 total exp. HOWEVER, if character A spends EP to get themselves a companion, they DO gain 500 total exp.
I don't think i need to state how this can be confusing, especially when trying to calculate your own total exp post companion.
2 - Companions come with mandatory slots
Companions when applied for, give the applyig character 3 additional skills. The F rank for having a companion, and 2 F ranks for the companion themselves. This is essentially 'free total exp' if calculated like this, and if not, further adds to the confusion of total exp.
During my calculations on Nimue, the closes I could get to her actual total exp, was to say the EP spent on her companion counted (500) but ALSO the mandatory F rank slot on the character (100) counted, turning 500 exp to 600 exp. Now, I have genuinely no idea if that additional 100 exp needs to be spent seperately (another issue i'll specify) because Nimue's progression sheet dosn't log how much her purchases cost, only her purchases.*
Solution
I actually have 2 solutions here. Depending on how we wish to lean on the matter. I will display my preferred option first.
EXP is not EP
EXP is not EP
Second verse same as the first. Any character can spend EP on any other character under the same player, so EP spends should not count towards total exp unless they actively create exp, ie, starter pack. In this case, if character A spends 500 exp for a companion on character B, 500 total exp is lost on A. If character A spends 500 exp for a companion on character A, 500 total exp is lost on character A. Either way, a simple net loss of 500 total exp in either chase, but with no confusion generated.
Shift companions to EXP spending
Shift companions to EXP spending
My second solution. Personally, I'm not a fan of EP confusion when it comes to exp period. I think it's a good way to make it clear starter packs can be bought for other characters, but, i don't like it when used for the companion system. I think a characters gains, beyond a starter pack, should solely be from that character. So, simply shifting it to 500 exp and not 2 ep, means characters can only buy companions for themselves, and there is less exp confusion. It doubly makes sure a characters hard work in improving themselves if solely the work of that character, again beyond exp packs.
IN EITHER SOLUTION
In either solution, we still have a mild issue. In solution 'exp is not EP' (A) you spend 2 ep to gain 3 F rank across yourself and your companion. in solution 'Companions cost EXP' (B) the same issue occurs. This is simply fixed.
for A - When calculating exp, include the companions skills and the skill spent on the companion, But, subtract 300 exp from the total exp. This accounts for the 3 free F ranks gained from a companion, as they had the potential of being purchased by another character.
for B - When calculating exp, include the companion skills and the skill spent on the companion, AND 200 exp for the companion itself. 300 (f ranks) + 200 (companion) = 500 (total spent)
PLEASE LEAVE ME YOUR THOUGHTS, ARGUMENTS, DISAGREEMENTS, CRITICISMS, ETC. even if your post is solely "yes i agree with this" or "no this sounds more complicated", ANY feedback is appreciated.
IN EITHER SOLUTION
In either solution, we still have a mild issue. In solution 'exp is not EP' (A) you spend 2 ep to gain 3 F rank across yourself and your companion. in solution 'Companions cost EXP' (B) the same issue occurs. This is simply fixed.
for A - When calculating exp, include the companions skills and the skill spent on the companion, But, subtract 300 exp from the total exp. This accounts for the 3 free F ranks gained from a companion, as they had the potential of being purchased by another character.
for B - When calculating exp, include the companion skills and the skill spent on the companion, AND 200 exp for the companion itself. 300 (f ranks) + 200 (companion) = 500 (total spent)
PLEASE LEAVE ME YOUR THOUGHTS, ARGUMENTS, DISAGREEMENTS, CRITICISMS, ETC. even if your post is solely "yes i agree with this" or "no this sounds more complicated", ANY feedback is appreciated.
*(Rosey simply placed the lindwe F rank up for approval, Maya approved it. Neither party mentioned if the lindwe slot on Nimue's app cost 100 exp or not. But to emphasize, most of her progression sheet does not mention EXP spends, and most mods simply approve it without stating how it affects her current exp like they do when grading threads, so the confusion is generated by both parties. really the whole progression thread is confusing cause there's a point where she says she's spending 200 exp on two new abilities but only shows one it's a confusing situation but i digress. I wanna emphasize i don't want to seem like im attacking Rosey, just emphasizing WHY there's so much confusion for me here)
